Bars That Sway

"ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)" (adabofoppo)
09/19/2016 at 10:52 • Filed to: Stiff Rear Ends

Oppo,

I desire less sway (more stiff?) from the rear of my GTI. I gather that means I upgrade the rear swaybar, but I am not sure how much better than stock I should go.

Any thoughts?

DISCUSSION (31)

Dru > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
09/19/2016 at 10:56

I'm sorry, I can't contribute to your question, but I must say your car is beautiful.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
09/19/2016 at 11:00

Be sure not to go too stiff. If you have a FWD that’s still just a little soft up front, all that forward weight bias could mean bouncing around like an ox cart in the back, particularly under braking. Stiff good, pretending to have minivan rear suspension bad.

Party-vi > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
09/19/2016 at 11:01

Grab an H&R Reare 24mm sway bar. Should set you back something near $300.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Dru
09/19/2016 at 11:01

Thanks! I’m pretty taken with it as well. I made the dealer swap the black leather seats the SE is supposed to have for the S-trim plaid cloth seats. I love it.

Sadly, it is no longer that clean. I just took it on vacation and it needs a bath.

GTI Sprinks > Party-vi
09/19/2016 at 11:04

winner winner chicken dinner. Also: hella jealous about those rims. I have the austin’s but i can say that i’m a bit green with envy seeing those wild things. Grass is always greener i suppose. Glad to have my 2dr S :)

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
09/19/2016 at 11:07

Higher spring rate will also stiffen things and lessen the amount of sway/roll. Obviously that is a more involved/expensive mod and may alter ride quality. But it depends on your goal and budget of course.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)
09/19/2016 at 11:08

Slightly lower springs are in the plans, but not just yet. I like how the car rides right now and do not want to ruin it by being too aggressive with my mods.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
09/19/2016 at 11:09

I spoke with GH Sharp who is very competitive in the GS class in autocross nationally, running a GTI. He said he swapped his rear sway bar to get just a bit beefier, pointing out that too stiff just picked up the inside wheel sooner. I can’t remember his change (but since he mentioned it to me I assume that he isn’t protecting the knowledge) - I think it was from stock 20 to new 22, or maybe even 21?

He has thought a lot about his setup, so I take it that you should be quite cautious in how much you change the sway bar. This may vary if you have also altered the suspension.

Party-vi > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
09/19/2016 at 11:10

Did you keep the seat heaters and power seat options? How bad was it cost-wise?

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com
09/19/2016 at 11:12

I would like to Auto-X more, but don’t have the time right now. I do not care what class I am in, and have zero desire to be competitive. I just enjoy driving my car to explore its and my limits.

That said it is good to have input from people who know about this stuff. I was thinking 22mm was too small, but it sounds like that is the best size then.

GTI Sprinks > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
09/19/2016 at 11:13

great looking gti. welcome to the club.

if you’re on ww: http://wheelwell.com/profile/555f82… :wave:

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Party-vi
09/19/2016 at 11:18

Seats work perfectly. Same connectors and power adjustments.

The Autobahn seats are fully power and cannot be swapped for lesser seats. The SE and S seats are the same, apart from seating material.

I ordered my car in October last year. I wanted the same car (Night Blue 6MT, 4-door, Performance Package), but an S, specifically for the seats. Four months later and still no car, the dealer calls me and says they have good news. “We can get you an SE, swap your seats, and you’ll only pay for an S.”

Where do I sign?

So, I would say it was very cost effective, in my specific case.

Also; my plate: GON PLAD

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
09/19/2016 at 11:20

Just remember that stiffening the rear without a corresponding change in the front is going to cause more oversteer. A stiffer sway bar will also increase the cars tendency to lift a rear wheel which leads to even more oversteer.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > GTI Sprinks
09/19/2016 at 11:22

Those are knock-offs. Got them on eBay for $700 shipped.

The real ones I did find online at some random German parts website for 2,600 Euro; which is like $3,200, without shipping. And they were 19's.

These are 18x8's. They also have a 35 offset, so I got a little poke with my 245mm tires on them.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > TheTurbochargedSquirrel
09/19/2016 at 11:25

I want more rotation, so yes, that is what I want to accomplish. This car plows a little too much for my taste.

My SVT Focus was just so lively and lithe. You could feel it rotating on/off throttle. The GTI just doesn’t feel at all. So I am looking to make the front turn in a little more by making the back push it around. I realize it will never be the same as my SVT, but it can be improved.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
09/19/2016 at 11:29

Just wanted to make sure you understood the effects and this wasn’t a case of “There is body roll at the back and I don’t like that”. I’m sure with a really aggressive suspension setup you could get the GTI really lively with lots of turn in.

Textured Soy Protein > TheTurbochargedSquirrel
09/19/2016 at 11:32

Nitpicking:

Things like, “more oversteer,” or “less understeer,” are not really accurate.

Adding roll stiffness to one end of the car in relation to the other end of the car will make the now-stiffened end of the car more likely to break traction sooner than the other end of the car.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > TheTurbochargedSquirrel
09/19/2016 at 11:34

Yes, but then it would ride like garbage. I can live with the reality that the GTI is not the lithe and nimble car my SVT was. But I can also make small adjustments to help it feel better to drive. I asked so I could get a sense of where the balance is. I do not want ruin the car, but I also want it to improve.

I do appreciate the concern and wisdom of being less aggressive about mods. I wasn’t going to get the most hard-core setup I could find, but I would have probably gotten something too aggressive if I hadn’t asked here.

Thanks!.

Textured Soy Protein > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
09/19/2016 at 11:37

Are you planning to keep the stock shocks and springs, or are you just thinking of what to do first? Because sway bars can do what you want but really they’re kinda the last piece of the puzzle in tweaking the handling. Alignment, tires, shocks & springs are where you want to start. I wouldn’t do it as your first move unless you plan for it to be your only move.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > Textured Soy Protein
09/19/2016 at 11:37

Which in the case of stiffening the rear equates to more oversteer. :P

Textured Soy Protein > TheTurbochargedSquirrel
09/19/2016 at 11:42

Kinja'd!!!

There is no “more oversteer.”

Oversteer and understeer are cornering angles that exist during a particular turn. A car cannot, as a general condition, have more or less of them.

If a car is more likely to oversteer, that does not mean it “has more oversteer,” it means the rear of the car is loose.

If a car is more likely to understeer, that does not mean it “has more understeer,” it means the front of the car pushes.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Textured Soy Protein
09/19/2016 at 11:48

I had planned on slightly lower springs, eventually. I am not going to slam the car as is so popular among VW owners. I do not want the car any lower than a stock Golf R.

I have not looked into suspension kits/springs yet as I cannot afford them right now, and thought the swaybar would make a more immediate impact.

Car was purchased new in January, and has just under 6k miles on it. Alignment is good. I already upgraded my wheels and tires. Wheels are ~3 pounds lighter per corner, and I have Bridgestone Potenza Pole Position tires on them.

Car still pushes during corners more than I want it to.

Textured Soy Protein > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
09/19/2016 at 11:58

When I say alignment I mean more negative camber in front, and your car doesn’t come stock with a front camber adjustment. ;)

Do you have either the VAQ differential or the DCC suspension?

Really first thing I’d try is adjusting your driving technique. If you’re getting more push than you’d like, try to trail brake a bit.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Textured Soy Protein
09/19/2016 at 12:37

I have the Performance Package, so I assume the VAQ diff. No DCC.

I sincerely doubt I will ever go aggressive enough to need camber adjustment on the front.

Currently, I brake before the turn, turn, let the car rotate, then throttle.

With the diff I know I should be on the gas earlier, but I haven’t had any chance to try that safely (Auto-X).

Captain of the Enterprise > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
09/19/2016 at 12:40

I love those wheels

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Captain of the Enterprise
09/19/2016 at 12:48

Knock-offs of the GTI Clubsport wheels.

The real ones are ~$3k before shipping from Europe.

These were ~$700 shipped on eBay. They are also 18x8's not 19's, so my car still rides well. And funnily enough they are ~3 pounds lighter than the stock VW Austins.

Textured Soy Protein > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
09/19/2016 at 12:51

I added camber plates to my car and it’s a total street car. :0

Really I would change up your technique to turn in while you’re still on the brakes, then get on the gas sooner than you think you should, and let the diff do its thing.

Every car is a little different so you have to adjust accordingly. My 335xi, even with about 75 extra hp, a bunch of negative camber in front, and stiffer rear sway bar, still has so much grip from the awd and 275-width rear tires, that to even slightly break the rear loose, I basically have to stand on the gas once I’m turned in, and even then it’s not actually sliding, more just hanging the tail out a little. I’m still adjusting to the car in this form.

Might as well see if you can tweak your driving to get the car to behave how you want before you go changing a bunch of stuff.

I’m a terrible example to follow what with my totally redone suspension, but that’s more because the stock 335xi suspension is friggin garbage so I upgraded everything rather than piecemeal.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
09/19/2016 at 13:22

Well lower springs are generally just for looks. A solid set of shocks and springs doesnt necessarily ruin how the car will ride, but yeah later makes sense. Sway bars a generally an easy swap, assuming your end links are simple to disconnect. Mine were rusted to hell which led to me literally breaking the links in half to get them off. Your car is a bit newer haha, so it should be easy as can be! As others have said, make sure you are cautious with the size of the bar(s) as you could easily throw off the balance with something too large.

Vicente Esteve > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
09/19/2016 at 21:48

I’d say get a cheap one first and see if it makes a difference, if it does then sell it and get a proper one.

Also I have some questions regarding the GTI. DSG or manual? Can you turn ESP off completely? (I have looked for this answer in the forums but I can’t seem to get a proper answer). How do you like it? Any tune?

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Vicente Esteve
09/19/2016 at 23:10

I am going to wait and do my sway bat proper once I have the money and have done more research.

6MT. I will row-my-own forever.

No, you cannot disable entirely. Holding the Spanish (ESP) button down for 5+ seconds enables Sport Mode which allows for much more wheel spin, but I found out this evening that VSC is always on.

I was turning left at a major suburban intersection, so two protected left turn lanes, road was 5 lanes total width. I was the inside left lane and had to avoid a car stopped and waiting to turn left from my driver side. So I had a car on my left and right and had to stay within my lane while turning, turn is long enough to grab 2nd halfway through. I caught 2nd and had to add some more lock to the wheel to stay within my turning lane, I also had Sport mode on and was mashing the gas. I have the Performance package and was letting the diff draw me tighter into the turn, but the extra steering angle plus the throttle input made for a sharp response. My car-bacon light flashed briefly as I hit the apex and turned off once I had lost steering lock.

I hope that scenario is descriptive enough for you. Clearly Sport mode is not ‘everything off’. I imagine the only way to disable everything is either a fuse pull or through a tune.

I am on the stock ECU for now. All my mods are preparatory in anticipation for a tune of some sort.

My prior DD was an SVT Focus. I adore those cars. They are lively and nimble and a joy to drive. The GTI is fun, but a very different way. Mid-range torque is very addictive. And I love having the diff. I also love that it doesn’t rattle my teeth out, isn’t obnoxiously loud, and is a stupendous highway car when it needs to be.

It feels much more grown up, without being overly dull. I drove the FiST and it is a riot, but it isn't very polished. The FoST felt too big. Also it doesn't have plaid seats, so there's that.

Vicente Esteve > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
09/20/2016 at 07:19

Excellent response, thanks. And if mid-range is addictive stock, I can’t imagine that change when it is tuned.